Sorry to here about the tough job market for you elsewhere and the rest of you. I've some friends in the IT field, it's tough for them too.
Porn and gambling always seem to be recession proof. Hey, those guys need websites too!
Winston.
Winston Smith :>D
JoinedPosts by Winston Smith :>D
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I didn't get the job
by Elsewhere ini have been doing contract work for about four years now and i have been trying to get a permanent position for well over a year.
last week i did an interview for a job that would have been perfect.
it was even very close to where i live... within a five minute drive.. this morning i got feedback and they really liked me, but decided to go with another candidate.
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I've heard all about you!
by SM62 ini have heard about this forum from someone, but i won't say who as i don't want to expose them.
i am in the process of evaluating my life as a jw.
it has been a pretty sad life - without a real feeling of 'belonging'.
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Winston Smith :>D
Hi Terri, welcome to the board!
Don't worry about feeling inadequate and not fitting in. We're all black sheep here, so you'll fit in just fine!
Winston.
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My wifes and I meeting with two elders. Their true colors shine through
by Winston Smith :>D ini thought id give you an update re whats going on.
my qing the wts of recent has been very hard on my wife.
if i could, i would change my timing of doing so, but its just the way it has happened.
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Winston Smith :>D
I want to break their fucking legs. SixofNine
I’ve envisioned similar. Maybe next time I can invite them over to my place for a ‘sit-down’ and have a few of my apostate friends waiting
It is absolutely the worst thing in the world to tell a suicidal person that they are feeling that way because they are simply not good enough. the elders' only concern was to check to see if you still feel the WTS is the voice of God. Pathetic drwtsn32
I agree on both accounts. ‘Pathetic’ to the nth degree.
BTW, I got your PM, Thx!
horrible, horrible, horrible. exactly who do they think they are?!?!?! >:( tink
For some dumb reason I always have a hope before each of these lynch hearings that maybe a light will click in their heads or at least a seed of doubt will be sown. I’m a glutton for punishment I guess. Each time I meet with these guys their arrogance escalates beyond my expectations. Which is saying alot because I have read here the stories of other good people being treated poorly, so I should know what to expect.
you could answer every question with a tearful, "I can't deal with this right now -- I have to think of what's best for my wife. I will address this issue at a later time, when she is feeling better. I'm sure you understand." Nina
You know what, I really consciously tried doing that. Maybe I wasn’t tearful enough or I was just to ready to jump into ‘fight’ mode. They just would not back down. I think they are taking this whole thing as a personal challenge on their loyalty to jehover.
And if possible get that asinine comment of theirs on tape. You could ever so sweetly threaten them with a lawsuit on the grounds of alienation of affection if they dare to interfere with the relationship of husband and wife. Nina
Oh, I will have all kinds of leading Q’s for them. I hope it will be a masterful game of chess with skewers, forks and pins. I’ll sacrifice a pawn here and there, but they will be forced to give up valuable material if they want to continue talking to me.
Okay, for you I recommend a good single malt Scotch. Nina
Well, that may be the best advice I’ve so far!
This is their DFing question. A good answer for some would be "If they claim to be the F&DS, who am I to say otherwise? As long as they are taking the spiritual lead and what they say is in accord with God's word, then I will follow their direction." This answer is vague enough to satisfy my conscience and has the HUGE loophole that was they say has to be in accord with the Bible to follow it. amac
That’s what I thought that question was too. I wanted to give a good answer, but I couldn’t think of a way to phrase it without cornering myself. This is PERFECT. Thx!
If you ever need someone to watch your back, call me, I"ll be glad to help. obiwan
Thx obiwan. I’d love to have Krusty the Clown backing me up, one the best characters on The Simpsons!
Man, everytime I read one of your posts, I always read it in Krutsy’s voice
Almost scary that your name is Winston, the name of the protagonist in Orwell's 1984. Frank.
Sorry, but that’s just my ‘code name’ here on JWD. But I did pick that screen name because of that very reason. I’m glad it doesn’t go unnoticed.
tape record the next session and every other session. Get every word. And I suggest you do what I did, do not meet with them in the KH. Meet with them in your own home, or in some neutral place like a meeting room in a library or some other place. Frank
I’d like to do that, but I don’t think I’d be able to pull off letting them be taped and meeting in a neutral place. I’ve heard some say that they’ve tried taping it discreetly, but it never really worked. I’d like to just take it out and plunk it down on the table and say, “OK, let’s get ready to rumble you Fother Muckers!” Maybe I could use a small mike and record it? Maybe place a ‘spy cam’ in the room and video tape it? Hey, I still got keys to the KH!
Or make them meet with your wife in the presence of her therapist. They'll LOVE that one Frank
Now that I’d love to do. Want to know why? Well, not the therapist, but the psychiatrist is a wonderfully educated man; he is semi-retired and does this just to help others out. He is also a lawyer [Ka-ching!] and a Theologian [Ka-ching! Ka-ching!!]
Our first meeting with him after he found out we were JW’s, he quoted John 1:1 to us. I was amazed because he did it in fluent Greek! [Ka-ching! Ka-ching!! Ka-ching!!!]
After saying the scripture in Greek, he gave my wife and I a knowing grin, then said, “But please keep reading your NWT, it’s not so bad of a translation. Having a belief in God can be an important part of the healing process.”
I want to have a little chat with him if I can ever arrange it.
SHE has to be the one to do it. It's going to be a difficult battle Winston. Keep strong. The tougher you fight, the tougher you get. Remember to take a bit of a break now and then, or else you'll get worn out. Nos
Thx nos. I don’t force anything on her, which I am seeing helps diffuse the situation. Plus we are doing more ‘fun’ things now. [what girl doesn’t love shopping and spending money?] And I try to give myself a break from this crap every so often. Finding out the ‘Truth’ about the Troof is consuming and exhausting for the first few months. This board is a lifesaver though!
I did give myself a little treat and ordered both of Ray’s books, plus the ‘Gentile Times’, and the escaping from a cult book that was recommended by Randy.
A response in the form of amac's should be ambigious enough to satsify them xjw_b12
Thx, that’s probably the only area of that meeting where I really wish I performed better. Oh well, I’ll get them next time.
Winston, this is gut-wrenching. Wish I could help--but I am holding you and your wife in my heart. Kgfreeperson
Sometimes it’s enough just to know this, thx.
Thanks to all for reading this, for keeping up to date on my issue, and for your helpful pointers. I highly doubt I would be doing even remotely as well if it weren’t for all of the great support here!
Sincerely,
Winston.
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My wifes and I meeting with two elders. Their true colors shine through
by Winston Smith :>D ini thought id give you an update re whats going on.
my qing the wts of recent has been very hard on my wife.
if i could, i would change my timing of doing so, but its just the way it has happened.
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Winston Smith :>D
An update:
Wife is seeing a therapist and psychiatrist. Both are really good and caring with her. She is doing better and is no longer a danger to herself. She is taking the medication prescribed to her by the psychiatrist.
I go to all meetings with her when she goes. At times we don’t go, but she always decides if we do or not.
The elders are on a personal mission to ‘fix’ me it seems.
One wanted to get together with me to go over the Q I have regarding 587/607. I didn’t want to get together with him, but I have to, to appease the wife. I have 5 pages of personal notes that I made in answer to the WTS appendix in the ‘Let your kingdom come’ book, so when he asked me to get together with him, I thought we could go over that. I also summarized Alleymom’s KISS method for this subject for him to look at.
I had a huge headache and felt nauseous an hour before going there, which never happens to me. I just chalked it up to maybe I was coming down with something. Little did I realize my ‘spidey senses’ were tingling again to let me know trouble was ahead.
When we got together, I just showed up in street clothes at the KH thinking we were going to chat. The elder opened the KH back door in full business garb.
“Oh, I didn’t know this was a formal occasion. I guess I am a little underdressed!”
As I walk in, there is another elder!
Damn! How could I be so stupid? I was setup for an ambush.
So they ask what Q I have. I mention the 607/587 date issue. I wanted to see scriptural proof on why the WTS has gone with 587 rather than the 607 date.
Of course they can’t. He is obviously out of his element with this Q. The other elder doesn’t even understand the Q I’m guessing by the look on his face. At one point the elder just started reading the last three or four paragraphs of the appendix to me.
After he was done, I asked, “So, what was the point of that? I didn’t see any scriptures read that backed up the WTS 607 date.”
He just started babbling and the elder minor followed suit. The other elder then says that we have to accept Bible chronology over worldly evidence.
“Well,” I ask, “then show me a scripture that is more direct regarding the end of the 70 years than Jer 25:10, 11.”
He says sometimes that we can’t have all the answers and have to trust the F&DS. The main elder that called this together has left the room to get a book.
“Ok, but how did the WTS arrive at this date then? Was there a scripture that they used?”
“We just can’t expect all of the answers.”
“Well, are the writers of the WTS inspired then?”
“No.”
“Ok, then are they prophets?”
“No, they are not prophets.”
“Then where did they get this date from? It has to be in the bible, right?”
He doesn’t know what else to say. He just starts paging through books until his tag-team partner gets back.
The head elder comes back with the Proclaimers book. And he starts reading aloud some paragraphs talking about Russel and 1914.
WTF? I never mentioned 1914 or Russel.
I said to him if he has something specific to share out of the Proclaimers book that is pertinent to this Q, then please share it. Otherwise, please do your personal study on your own time and stop wasting mine.
Now they just start coming out with the Q’s to size me up.
Elder minor now asks if they answer this Q about 607, then will I start going out in FS again?
“I can’t answer that.”
“Why not?”
“It’s a complicated answer and I don’t have the time for it.”
“Well, just try to give us an answer.”
“I can’t. The answers are personal.”
He is getting frustrated. They want direct answers, now!
“I don’t understand. What do you mean by personal?”
“It means it’s personal, and It’s none of your business!”
“Whoa, I was just asking a Q.”
“Ya, well I answered it the first time. But you just keep coming back around full circle and start asking the same Q again. When I say that it’s personal, I’m kindly saying to back off. If you don’t heed that, I’m going to get hostile, understand?”
Now the head elder asks the craziest Q I have ever heard:
“Do I think that reading the bible is as important as identifying and following Christ’s brothers direction?”
I couldn’t believe he was asking me this. Most normal people would say the bible is the most important thing. But not these guys. They want me to say that the Bible is less important than identifying the ‘brothers of Christ’ and following the F&DS direction.
“I can’t answer that. It sounds like a trick question to me.”
“It’s not a trick Q.”
“Well, I must be stupid then, because I don’t understand your Q.”
He restates it a few more times, but I always just say that I don’t know and I can’t give him a direct answer.
“Well, millions of people read the Bible, yet do they have an accurate knowledge of the Bible?”
“I’m not sure what you want me to say here. They are both really important, right?”
I help them out a little by engaging in a little theocratic warfare. I reason in my head that even if the WTS isn’t the ‘brothers of Christ’, it still is important no matter who the brothers are, so I come right out and say that yes, it is more important to identify the brothers of Christ.
But he still doesn’t hear what he wants. I can tell. So I throw outright lies out there. I am sooo appreciative of the truths that I have learned from the brothers; like the truth about Hell, the immortal soul, about God’s government, yada, yada, yada.
“Ohh, that’s good then.”
They appear a bit relieved at this point.
Still, he hasn’t heard what he wants yet. And he asks if I will start studying with my wife out of the WTS literature again.
I told him that as the spiritual head of my family, I am doing what I feel is best for my family.
Then I look at the elder minor and say, “and I want to thank you for saying bringing that up at the last meeting. You mentioned that if I knew my wife was depressed for a while now, then I should do something as the spiritual head and not try to place the blame on the elders. And that’s what I am doing. Thank you for your advice.”
“And right now I am doing all that I can. Once we get past my wife’s health problems, I will deal with this Q at that time.”
So the he asks his final Q:
“Do you believe that the WTS is the F&DS, and that we have to follow their direction?”
I wanted to say yes, but couldn’t. I know if I saw yes, this elder will run back to my wife and say that I believe the WTS is providing the food for us today, and that we should start studying. If I say no, I’m an apostate and a danger to my wife. So I just say that I can’t give him a direct answer to this Q yet.
But he starts getting in my face, less than 12” away, and repeats with hostility the question 5 times over, with me giving him the same answer everytime.
“I can’t give you a direct answer yet. It’s not just that easy of a fix.”
“Well, I got the answer I was looking for.” he says with some arrogance.
I didn’t give him any answer, but not saying ‘yes’ means ‘no’ in these guy’s books.
He then says why he needs an answer from me.
Because, and now he slows his speech and is very careful about his choice of words, even though I am the spiritual head, my wife is a dedicated servant to Jehovah and the organization. If she is in spiritual trouble, it is the congregation’s responsibility to protect her as they see fit.
And there was the first hint at them encouraging her to get a legal separation.
Now elder minor asks, “Are you talking to others about this info? Because this type of talk is very negative and could be discoursing to others”
They are now looking to put the apostate label in me by saying I’m teaching others. I tell them I never have.
“I wish I never found out about that date. I wish I never knew the TRUTH of this matter. We’ll, not the truth, but I’d rather be ignorant about this info than to be troubled with these Q’s now. I wouldn’t wish this upon anyone else.”
Lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. I’ve learned quite well from the WTS and I am engaging in more theocratic warfare. I don’t need them to cut me off. Not yet. I gotta save my wife before I get out.
As the meeting wraps up, I make this quip remark:
“All that was missing from this interrogation was the 100W bulb swinging from the ceiling to be shining in my face!”
“This isn’t an interrogation. We’re just trying to help.”
BS
There will be another meeting. This isn’t the last of them. One will have to be held on the premise of giving me answers to by question on 607. So I got prepared:
Right after the meeting, I ran to the store and followed Elsewhere’s advice and got a micro-cassette recorder, lot’s of batteries, and hours of audio tape.
Winston.
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what was the most influential saying/person that changed you ???
by run dont walk in.
if there was one thing that affected me most was, i would have to say the time i ran into a brother (while i was still in the borg) in the downtown area.. he said "just take one year off, no meetings, no service, no assemblies, no talks, nothing, just take a break, and you will see the wathctower differently, and your mind will clear.".
at the time i just shrugged it off as a bitter jw who left, now when i look back, it was probaly the biggest thing that someone ever said to me, and he was right, 100%.. was there a saying, an occurrence or a person that just got you thinking about how ridiculous the watchtower is ??
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Winston Smith :>D
All great stories!
Once in a while I would see the lies, propaganda, yellow journalism, or the WTS just plain speaking out of both sides of their mouths in the WT & ASLEEP! mags, but I always brushed it aside as, "I have to trust in jehover."
Then I read George Orwell's "Animal Farm" That hit too close to home. I then read his masterpiece, "1984". Once I found out about 587 vs. 607; what I read from George Orwell empowered me to question the WTS' authority.
To this day, whenever I hear people answer at the meetings [as I still go ], all I can think of is the sheep bleating in "Animal Farm",
"Four legs good, two legs bad. Four legs good two legs bad."
I'm sure I have a really stupid grin on my face that would make others wonder what the hell I'm thinking about
Winston.
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Hi, my introduction.....finally.
by MonkeyPrincess ini have been reading posts for a while, but everytime i try and post my intro, i dont know what to say, so i suppose i will just write what comes to me.
lets see, i was born and raised in the "truth", i have never known anything else my whole life, so this is weird for me to think differently.
i was df'd about 4 years ago when i met my "worldly" husband, i have tried for the past 2 years to be reinstated, but i guess that i have not tried hard enough, according to the elders (who btw have not been very nice or loving toward me).
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Winston Smith :>D
Hi MonkeyPrincess, and welcome!
I can understand the head spinning feeling. I think all of us went through something similar when we finally realized the enormity of how we dedicated our lives to a man made organization.
Winston.
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Hey people, its a pleasure to meet everyone.....
by CETME inhey guys, thought i'd introduce myself...... my name is lars, and i'm 22... i'm majoring in education here in florida........ i was brought up as a jw, but i never really got into it... because the political side was so corrupt.... right now i'm just trying my best to be a good person, for myself and for god..... .
i'm a little rough around the edges... i shoot guns, race cars, ride bmx..... etc... so i guess my lifestyle didnt suit the jw's as well...... .
anyways, i searched around for a picture of myself, but i really dont have any "normal" ones......... .
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Winston Smith :>D
Hi CETME, welcome.
Wow, we're having a great influx of newly interested ones in here of late. We are surely being blessed by jehover for all of our diligent apostatizing
Winston.
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Hi
by sens injust thought id say hi.... my name is sens, ive been out almost 3 months...(da).
i only know 2 other ex.jw 's ... so feel sort of isolated...(not that i didn't when i was still in the org but anyway...lol).
i actually have one question....whats the deal with the un thing?.
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Winston Smith :>D
Hi Sens!
Winston.
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Bro gives talk by laptop...lol
by caspian indespite my hangover, i reluctantly went to the meeting yesterday (the gaps are getting bigger each week).
i know that my eyes were a bit out of focus, but this is true, the young elder (age 27ish) gave the talk from his laptop.
his audience contact was crap as his eyes kept scrolling down the screen, mind you it was the worst talk i had heard for years, one of those 30 scriptures in 45 minutes events what we used to call read and run with no explanation.. .
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Winston Smith :>D
1st time i've heard of that, or a PDA being used for a talk.
I've seen a bro using a PDA for taking notes at a DC & in FS, but that's it.
Winston.
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Winston Smith :>D
welcome moonbeam!
Winston.